Curse

upier · Oct 16, 2008, 10:36 AM // 10:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

Short answer: They are stupid.

Slightly longer answer: Its pretty obvious if you read this thread: People simply don't know and apparently don't want to know what an exploit is. Even after the definition according to both the video game dictionary and game developers has been given people just ignore it. You will find that when it comes to ethical concerns like cheating people will invent all sorts of nonsensical reasons to try and make their actions seem right in their own eyes. It works the same way as religious fundamentalism. Get an idea -> Assume idea is correct -> Ignore contradicting evidence -> Keep idea forever.

Show "contradicting evidence" applying to this issue.
And you might want to include the term "NC Interactive" in there a few times.
And you can start by contradicting this:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...hlight=syncing

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

Even when a team tries to synch, it doesn't always work. It does sometimes though, so I will see if the designers feel it is a serious issue, and if there is a way to fix it.

And you are mistaken.
Some of us aren't assuming that the idea is correct.
We are just assuming that the idea isn't wrong.

pumpkin pie · Oct 16, 2008, 11:05 AM // 11:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

Even when a team tries to synch, it doesn't always work. It does sometimes though, so I will see if the designers feel it is a serious issue, and if there is a way to fix it.

Please fix it. thank you very much.

It does work, hence, I for one have stop playing in that Random Arena. Some players also admitted here that it is possible and they do with good success rate in synching.

shoogi · Oct 16, 2008, 11:14 AM // 11:14

for crying out loud...
when will a mod finally come and tell people to STOP REMAKING THE SAME THREAD ABOUT SAME SUBJECT EVERY DAY.

Syncing is NOT cheating, nothing could be done by anet to stop it and nothing should be done by anet to stop it. It's not as near as common as you make it look anyway.

Kashrlyyk · Oct 16, 2008, 11:26 AM // 11:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

Even when a team tries to synch, it doesn't always work. It does sometimes though, so I will see if the designers feel it is a serious issue, and if there is a way to fix it.

So if I find a way to duplicate an item, that only works 70% of the time it would not be a problem? I would not be banned right?? Right??

Shasgaliel · Oct 16, 2008, 11:35 AM // 11:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoogi

for crying out loud...
when will a mod finally come and tell people to STOP REMAKING THE SAME THREAD ABOUT SAME SUBJECT EVERY DAY.

Syncing is NOT cheating, nothing could be done by anet to stop it and nothing should be done by anet to stop it. It's not as near as common as you make it look anyway.

Thread is from 2007. So it is not a new one. I think it is good to put it back again.

You think Anet should not do anything so you can sync further? Regarding your arguments someone already sum it up in a very nice way:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

Slightly longer answer: Its pretty obvious if you read this thread: People simply don't know and apparently don't want to know what an exploit is. Even after the definition according to both the video game dictionary and game developers has been given people just ignore it. You will find that when it comes to ethical concerns like cheating people will invent all sorts of nonsensical reasons to try and make their actions seem right in their own eyes. It works the same way as religious fundamentalism. Get an idea -> Assume idea is correct -> Ignore contradicting evidence -> Keep idea forever.

If it was up to me I would just keep banning since this syncing abuse seriously spoils the game for others - OP of this old thread for example.

Numa Pompilius · Oct 16, 2008, 12:01 PM // 12:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

Even when a team tries to synch, it doesn't always work.

Doesn't have to be a complete team, two or three synched players in the team is still a huge advantage.

Quote:

It does sometimes though, so I will see if the designers feel it is a serious issue, and if there is a way to fix it.

I wouldn't say it's a serious issue, but it's been getting worse. The last few weeks I've come up against Mo-W-Ra-N spike teams in RA every, oh, 5-10 matches, which is annoying and makes it much harder to get winning streaks.

Daenara · Oct 16, 2008, 12:19 PM // 12:19

Silly to resurrect an old thread when the current one is still going.

However, what it does show is that the issue has been going on for a long time. The likelihood of Anet fixing it now is very slim.

zwei2stein · Oct 16, 2008, 01:28 PM // 13:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by moko

my point is that it's not considered "cheating".

sure, it's not fair, and shouldn't be done, but clearly arenanet doesn't care enough seeing how they abuse it themselves.

respectable figure does it >>> it is ok thing to do

?

Surely, you must be jesting.

Aera Lure · Oct 16, 2008, 02:02 PM // 14:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoogi

for crying out loud...
when will a mod finally come and tell people to STOP REMAKING THE SAME THREAD ABOUT SAME SUBJECT EVERY DAY.

We are consistently urged to use the search function. This is the result. Its silly to complain about people not using the search function and then complain when they actually do...

This thread has relevance to the other current thread (there are all of two, mind you, not a new one every day) because it shows a response from Anet on the matter over a year ago.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoogi

Syncing is NOT cheating, nothing could be done by anet to stop it and nothing should be done by anet to stop it. It's not as near as common as you make it look anyway.

Its cheating. Plain and simple. I'd like to see your explanation of how it isnt.

Random arenas are supposed to be random. Part of the play of that arena is to deal with the random selection of classes you are presented with, randomly, and work towards a winning streak. Builds used in RA by definition then are different than those in TA. If syncing worked only 50% of the time, you'd still see at least one synced team on your way to a winning streak, which includes a coordinated build and use of teamspeak. Hard to beat for an honestly random team. If you want to play in a team, use team arenas.

Also, all Anet has to do is randomize the event where the player hits the enter button, so that its actually read by the system randomly 1-15 or so seconds after pressed (not visible to players). The odds of four players syncing would then truly be random. Even if you all hit the button at the same time, its going to be read at different times. Random. Like its supposed to be. Like it will never be. There is, at least, an easy fix.

Shayne Hawke · Oct 16, 2008, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daenara

Silly to resurrect an old thread when the current one is still going.

QFT.

@OT: Syncing is cheap and makes arenas like RA turn into an imbalance of skill and coordination even if one team has two synced teammates together.

However, I feel that if ANet isn't going to care enough to fix it, I'm not going to care enough to avoid abusing it myself. Besides, AP said that it was up to the designers on whether it'd be a serious enough issue, and it's only going to get fixed if more people abuse it to point out how the system is flawed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aera Lure

Its cheating. Plain and simple. I'd like to see your explanation of how it isnt.

I would argue that as this issue/exploit becomes discussed and it becomes public knowledge, more people will try to use it as an edge. The more people learn to use it as an edge, the less of an edge it becomes, simply because more people are using it. At some point, it can't be considered cheating if too great a population is using it to boost themselves, and at that point, ANet should have fixed it.

Gargle Blaster · Oct 16, 2008, 02:33 PM // 14:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

So if I find a way to duplicate an item, that only works 70% of the time it would not be a problem? I would not be banned right?? Right??

Random means random... so that if you join RA with a Buddy you may or may not be on the same team... there is no exploit here it is how random works.

N1ghtstalker · Oct 16, 2008, 02:59 PM // 14:59

/signed for banning syncers

Raul the Rampant · Oct 16, 2008, 05:18 PM // 17:18

A touch late, but this was on the right track...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

You have 100 spheres in a bowl. 96 are black and 4 are red. You randomly pick them up and place them in groups of four. Each group is filled before a new group is started. What are the probabilities to get 4,3 or 2 red ones in the same group?
The same but the spheres are queued and the groups are done by taking the first sphere in the queue and then the second a.s.o.. What are the probabilities then? This one would completly depend on the distribution of the red spheres in the queue and the position of the first red sphere.

If the red spheres are right behind each other (that is what syncing is trying to do), than all 4 are in the same group, if the first red sphere is at position 5, 9, 13 a.s.o..

Right, which is why most syncing occurs in mostly empty districts as it increases the chances of all being in a row. Thus why it has been suggested that condensing empty districts and/or implementing a more complex random queue system may be decent fixes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

People simply don't know and apparently don't want to know what an exploit is. Even after the definition according to both the video game dictionary and game developers has been given people just ignore it. You will find that when it comes to ethical concerns like cheating people will invent all sorts of nonsensical reasons to try and make their actions seem right in their own eyes. It works the same way as religious fundamentalism. Get an idea -> Assume idea is correct -> Ignore contradicting evidence -> Keep idea forever.

and

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aera Lure

Random arenas are supposed to be random. Part of the play of that arena is to deal with the random selection of classes you are presented with, randomly, and work towards a winning streak.

You're assuming that the current system is not operating as it was intended based on the word 'random' being in the name. But anet has precedents already set where skill descriptions do not match exactly what the skills do (here's a list of skill anomalies on the unofficial wiki if you want to check... not all apply to this post but several do); this seems to be another case where clearly the description does match the actual operation. Either the random team generator is flawed or the name of the arena is flawed compared to how it was intended, but we have not got a definitive answer on this. We have a somewhat ambiguous statement from anet here that told us they are aware of it but no follow-up response was provided so we don't know for sure which end the problem is on (post #14 in the thread):

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

And you can start by contradicting this:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...hlight=syncing

The lack of a follow-up implies that it is not considered a serious problem, but implied isn't good enough; however, it could be because the dev's can't come up with a good way to fix it but don't want to admit it, too. I personally believe the former, but I'm not going to pretend I'm the ultimate authority on it either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

So if I find a way to duplicate an item, that only works 70% of the time it would not be a problem? I would not be banned right?? Right??

Not that I'm condoning syncing, but duping items provides you with material benefits in the game, which can be used to get you money/items/whatever. Syncing in RA gives you a chance (not guaranteed as some insist... synced teams face each other, too) to get a (or multiple) glad points that can be used to get you... uh, a worthless title that has no benefit to it other than existing in the HoM and some e-peen gratification. While the material benefits are also for the HoM and e-peen, I'd still argue that material > immaterial.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

The more people learn to use it as an edge, the less of an edge it becomes, simply because more people are using it. At some point, it can't be considered cheating if too great a population is using it to boost themselves, and at that point, ANet should have fixed it.

I'd agree with that first sentence completely, but the "well everyone else is doing it" defense rarely turns out well.

shoogi · Oct 16, 2008, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shasgaliel

You think Anet should not do anything so you can sync further?

So if I tell people to stop QQing about syncing it means that I do sync RA all day? lol, I don't have people to sync RA with even if I wanted to, as all my guildies/friends left GW a long time ago. And even if I did have guildies to sync with I would play gvg, not waste my time on RA. You don't know me, don't post stuff about me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aera Lure

Its cheating. Plain and simple. I'd like to see your explanation of how it isnt.

It does not violate the EULA. Plain and simple. They do nothing which is unacceptable or broken. Anet can only do something against players if they violate the agreement.
After NF came out that guild StaR found out that Sig of ghostly might is bugged and you can cast it on players, so they went into gvg with 8 w/rts and rushed the guild lord. Yes, it is not fair. Yes, it is exploiting a flaw in the game. Yes, it is 'lame'. Is it cheating? Should Anet have banned them for this? No, because it doesn't violate any part of the EULA.

Yes, syncing is a bit unfair and doesn't really work with what RA was supposed to be, but it's not against the rules. Anet shouldn't ban syncers, they have nothing to ban them for. The only thing that can be done against syncers (as I said, banning is NOT an option) is change the matching system so it's harder to sync.

Which leads me to my final point- I recall only one or two times when I was up against a sync team. Syncs are about 1% of the teams in RA. It's not such a big issue that makes RA unplayable (as leaving and leeching were before dishonor was added).

And one definitely final point- Why don't people QQ about stuff that really breaks the game (i.e. expert's dexterity, retarded HA mechanics), we don't get many responses from Anet here, so at least save them for something useful.

DreamWind · Oct 16, 2008, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

It is an exploit. I explained why a few pages back. Every major game developer and publisher I have worked for and know would classify this as an exploit and have it filed under the same database as game bugs.

Then I want a list of these devs and publishers. If you can prove to me that this is a flaw in the game be my guest. I said earlier, Anet has no intentions of fixing it and there is no penalty for doing it. Hell every official discussion of it lists it as "no big deal". RA DESIGNED that way=no flaw. The only reason this is even brought up is because of titles. Remove the source, remove the "problem" which isn't even a big problem. They'd be better off fixing real problems with their game. This is almost as bad as those people in Gunz who think Kstyle is an exploit.

SuruBl4ck · Oct 16, 2008, 08:58 PM // 20:58

It's not against the rules.

However, I still don't support it.

icedwhitemocha · Oct 16, 2008, 09:12 PM // 21:12

I don't see what the big deal is.

In order to stop syncing, they'd need to "break" the randomness of RA. And guess what; with all the districts available now it makes it even harder to stop 4 man sync teams. They'd have to do some rewriting on team formation to "fix" it, and I can't see that happening.

Why is this 12 pages???

Kashrlyyk · Oct 16, 2008, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raul the Rampant

....
Not that I'm condoning syncing, but duping items provides you with material benefits in the game, which can be used to get you money/items/whatever. Syncing in RA gives you a chance (not guaranteed as some insist... ....

Balthasar Factions can be turned into Zaishen keys, which sell for 4p.

Duping was only used as an example. How about a bug with a skill that kills the Guild Lord instantly with a 70% chance? Would that be ok, or would the exploiters be banned?

DreamWind · Oct 17, 2008, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

How about a bug with a skill that kills the Guild Lord instantly with a 70% chance? Would that be ok, or would the exploiters be banned?

They had that with 100% chance and it was fixed very quickly. Syncing has been in existence since the beginning because no fix is required.

Raul the Rampant · Oct 17, 2008, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

Balthasar Factions can be turned into Zaishen keys, which sell for 4p.

Alright, you got me on that, but I'm not convinced that is the reason people sync; I still think it's still glad points that they're after. It's no faster to get balth faction from RA than any other form of pvp or even trapping Zaishen. The most balth you can get from a single RA match on a not double weekend is 180 assuming it's flawless. To get a key from that would require ~25 flawless ones in a row (adding in 50 faction every 5 matches for the streak bonus), which at 2 minutes per match (counting down time in between) takes about an hour; since 25 flawless in a row that consistently fast even as a synced team is fairly ambitious (especially if you don't leave after 10 and restart as you're moved to TA anyway... syncing perfectly 3 times in a row to get 25 this way isn't a given either) you're probably looking at closer to an hour and a half minimum. Going in to AB puts you up against mindless and thoroughly predictable NPCs and a decent array of absolutely horrible player builds... in that same hour and a half you spend ABing your side should get 500 total kills (5k balth faction) pretty easily even if matches aren't constant. Do some rspike in HA and you'll get faction and fame for each victory on top, as opposed to faction and a glad point every 5 wins in RA/TA. Might be a little slower, but you'll get an emote to boot...

I'll stop now before I further depress myself as I realize just how overboard I'm getting on this, but my point is that (unless I missed something) RA is no more efficient as a faction farm than anything else in the pvp realm. I don't think this is the real motivation for people syncing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

Duping was only used as an example. How about a bug with a skill that kills the Guild Lord instantly with a 70% chance? Would that be ok, or would the exploiters be banned?

That zergspike mess that was floating around for the last month or so was exactly this, was it not? Essentially instakill the Guild Lord by exploiting a flaw in the terrible AI. This was promptly (well for them) corrected by anet, but since this was discovered simply through the use of ordinary gameplay and within the rules it was not an exploit. Since syncing in RA was discovered through ordinary gameplay and (from what we can tell) is not outside the official rules, I don't see a difference.

EDIT: Dreamwind beat me to it.